Martial arts, coaching, fitness, stress management and personal development from coach Phil Wright. Crazy Monkey Defence Programme, BJJ and MA Life concepts and principles. Phil is an Elite Trainer in the CMDP and holds a purple belt in BJJ, both of these are certified by the PCWA founder and Machado Black Belt, Rodney King.

Monday, September 11, 2006

Why back-to-back grappling is counter-productive.

Many clubs include some form of grappling into their classes, sometimes as an integral part of their system, sometimes just as a game. Many times though these ‘games’ become overly aggressive and needlessly competitive. Almost always at the expense of learning and skill development.

The reason? I believe it has a lot to do with grappling bouts starting seated back-to-back with a frantic scramble for dominance at the outset. Many clubs that include grappling but don’t have a base in BJJ or Submission wrestling use this format and have to absorb the problems, and dangers, that it causes.

Grappling is rife with people going hell-for-leather, using too much strength, too little technique and showing a lot of the things that are worst about martial arts training: Loose cannon attitudes, win at all cost ‘fighting’, undue aggression and bad sportsmanship. Even when used as a game.

This is often due to starting back-to-back with both fighters spinning around and diving in to get control. Ordinarily the stronger opponent wins this initial exchange through bulldozing the weaker and that sets the tone for the rest of the roll. I use the term ‘roll’ loosely as there is rarely any motion in the rest of match despite blood vessel-bursting amounts of effort. All that happens is that tempers fray and the whole exercise becomes negative.

I just don’t see where the fun in this is.

A simple alternative is to use the method commonly seen in BJJ clubs and used by everyone at Revolution – start rolls off facing each other, kneeling or on one knee, shake or slap hands and start your roll by calmly working for grips. You don't start judo randori back to back and I know of no stand up martial art that does this... but for some reason people insist on making grappling look like an 18th Century duel with flintlocks.

By changing the first action of the roll from a psychotic blast to a considered tactical game you change the entire feel of grappling. It is easier to keep the rolls light, fluid and technical when they have started this way. If people choose to roll using power it is a choice, rather than a default position needed for survival.

Try rolling without strength for the most productive rolls. If a move needs to be powered on it shows you don't have the leverage right. Move to a position of greater leverage and the move should work without strength.

Remove the scramble at the start of the roll and you get a safer, less aggressive, more enjoyable and more evenly-matched activity that allows everyone the chance to work their game (regardless of size or experience). Martial arts are predicated on the idea of technique overcoming size and strength. Strength is still strength and brute force is brute force, even when wrapped up in a gi.

If you have any questions on how to introduce a safe grappling game into your training contact Phil Wright or come down and 'play' at Revolution.

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22 Comments:

Anonymous Matt said...

I can see a few reasons for starting back to back. First is that this forces the players to react more quickly, as they aren't visually cued as to the opponent's moves. It also allows for some moderate amount of trickery, and lessens the stare down intimidation portion of the rondori.
In my classes I use this mainly as a break from the more serious aspects of training, more like a game, to be honest. I have never been in an actual fight that started back to back, so training that way seems a little silly to me.
It does also seem to teach players to use the move that Uki moved into, rather than an all out push and shove, at least in the more accomplished students. That's one of the things I like to concentrate on with my kid's Judo classes, allowing Uki to break his own balance and to teach the students not to brute force the move, but to let the move self-select.
But as recreation, I like it.

2:16 AM

 
Blogger gaz @ revolution said...

i think your asking for trouble starting back to back, there just too many options for someone to eat an elbow in the opening second, so not good.

9:30 AM

 
Blogger Phil Wright said...

Hey Matt, thanks for commenting.

‘It does also seem to teach players to use the move that Uki moved into, rather than an all out push and shove, at least in the more accomplished students.’

I think this is where I see the problem arising, every new student to grappling I have seen, whether serious or ‘game-based’, always resort to all out push and shove.

I agree that once someone has become accomplished in breaking balance and receiving energy they are more likely to take what is given but this often comes after a difficult to break habit has already been set.

I'm a firm believer in partners training together rather than always competing which reduces the need for trickery and intimidation. Again I think this level of artifice is a more advanced part of a fighters progression and can be reduced in a beginners game.

If the emphasis is technical development first, physical adaptation second and mental & emotional development further down the line then I think it is important to set up a training environment where this can happen in the right order.

Even if grappling is treated as a game it is easy for people to get carried away. I have seen some nightmare clashes amongst small kids due to starting back-to-back. I have seen people spin out and away because they have no tools from here and I have seen people hurt because one fighter bulldozed in while the other was off balance and turning.

I haven't seen any such injuries from people starting facing each other and starting with a handshake.

The way we try and work is to start off face-to-face and then when people are comfortable with this let them work from standing. This way they get to explore the balance breaking aspects and how to set up entries into groundwork once they have a foundation in what they're doing on the ground.

10:14 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Phil, first let me just say this is a genuine question and not the negative criticism that it may ultimately sound like cos im just writing this as it comes to me...
I know your sessions are, in your own words "fun" but I think there needs to be some, or should i say more aggression in the training. Im not talkin broken arms and concussion but at the end of the day martial arts is still fighting. I dont think it would hurt to "eat an elbow" as Gaz puts it, and I know a more aggressive roll or spar would ultimately be more cathartic, more strenuous and therefore a better work out all round. I know the members at the club all have a shared aim, there are no bullies and theres no competition so i think it would be safe to take things up a notch or 2. The reduced aggression methods sometimes I feel border on nothing more than synchronised sparring. I have spoken to atleast 1 other member who says that it is sometimes better to have an aggressive sparring session, as it is more strenuous but it also incorporates specificity of what you are trying to achieve. ie Hand speed, muscle strengthening etc. Anyway - what does everyone else think? I know that you have asked for feedback in the past and it usually ends up with a room full of blank faces so hopefully this will stir up a decent discussion. Or if I am on my own on this one thats fine too.

5:24 PM

 
Anonymous Jim said...

There are a million places where you can spar aggressively regularly.
I'm training at a club where all out sparring is common. The technical skill is equally high at revolution and alot more experimental and interesting, plus the variety of people training is much greater at Revolution. So if the skill level is unaffected, why is aggressive sparring needed?

9:19 PM

 
Blogger Phil Wright said...

Anonymous? (You're not helping me here)

I don't believe that aggression plays any part in training, but that might just be me.

‘The reduced aggression methods sometimes I feel border on nothing more than synchronised sparring’

I don’t agree with this at all. Light doesn’t mean synchronised, it means safe and technical.

I do agree that there are times when you can raise the pressure – which we have done tonight, for example - and that can be rewarding but there is a very fine line that must be negotiated to stop it tipping over into a negative experience. Admittedly that falls largely on the shoulders of you and your partner but what is one person's catharsis is another persons reason to quit training.

I admit that I’m biased because I walk around with a permanent limp due to training with people who didn't understand that line. I don’t want Revolution to be like other clubs for that reason alone.

‘as it is more strenuous but it also incorporates specificity of what you are trying to achieve. ie Hand speed, muscle strengthening etc. ’

I also question this based on what people want to achieve. This is a sweeping statement and doesn’t apply to most of the people who are training with us. If your aim is not to become a fighter then are you really working towards purely physical goals.

Hand speed can be better developed working lightly, co-ordination will develop better working lightly, muscle-strengthening is best worked with resistance (whether through weight or on pads)...

Most physical skills can be more effectively trained than pressure sparring. So it becomes largely about stress/pressure innoculation, which is fine, if that is what you want. But if so, let’s call a spade a spade and let’s not assume that is everyone’s motivation.

I’m quite happy for people to ‘take it up a notch or two’ from time to time. But I think those rounds have to be chosen carefully so they are productive to both parties and they shouldn’t be your default state of sparring.

I’m always happy to take the pressure up for people and I know there are others in the club who can do the same. But you had best make sure that you can convince me afterwards that it was positive and developmental beyond just taking your frustrations out on my face.

11:00 PM

 
Blogger Phil Wright said...

Or I may just be being tetchy because I’m tired. ; )

11:05 PM

 
Blogger gaz @ revolution said...

why post as anonymous, you know we openly encourage people to speak there minds and dont judge. everyone has a different spirit in there self afterall.

i personally dont want to eat an elbow every now and then, if i was training to be a pro fighter, or a samurai in fuedal japan, then i would need to, but i train for fun, to see my mates etc.

if people want to go a bit harder, then like phil says, it can be done, if its what people want and will not be disadvantageous. ive done synchronised sparring as you call it, and i can say from the bottom of my heart what we do is so diometrically apposed to sync sparring, its unreal.

every day you come in and work against a resisting opponent in a safe and relaxed enviroment, you are learning. which you are NOT when sync sparring.

we could do a kata class and points sparring class if you would like to see the difference, lol. but as your talking about it i think you already have experienced that.....stuff.

anyway im tired too, so hit us back (not literally) lol and lets work this out.

12:30 AM

 
Blogger Phil Wright said...

Once we've got into the new room there will be dedicated sparring classes for both stand up and ground. These will be the perfect opportunity for anyone who wants to push themselves (and their partners) that little bit further.

Which I hope will allow us to offer what everyone wants. Yay!

: )

7:45 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dont take me the wrong way - im not implying that im right and youre wrong. Much the opposite in fact. My perception of grappling and boxing is that its innately violent and therefore sessions that are based merely on technique surely dont achieve the specific experience you would need to fend off a drunken prat "swinging for the fences". I was sure that Phil would give me the technical reasons for the reduced aggression and that Gaz would give me the practical reasons with a touch of comedy. Which you both did. You are both greatly more experienced than me and I just wanted to address a couple of concerns I had about where this type of training was going to take me, and was fishing for reassurance that its as good as un-necessary and aggressive brawling sessions.

10:06 AM

 
Blogger Phil Wright said...

I think the key is that taking the aggression out of training 99% of the time doesn't limit performance development.

In fact the opposite happens, great performance comes out of flow, flow is difficult to attain under stress.

Once your technique works you can develop the pressure-handling side of things. The great thing about training this way is that if your skill has had enough chance to develop then it holds up under pressure better than a lower skill level that is pressure-tested earlier.

For example, if your CM structure holds up against light pressure you can up the contact 100% and the whole thing only feels 10% harder to deal with.

I treat it like swimming. I know how to swim, I don’t like it but I learnt just on the off-chance that I might need to stop myself drowning one day if I fall off a boat in the middle of the sea. Even though my end requirement is survival in the worst possible circumstances I still learnt and practiced in a swimming pool. Having swum in the sea it wasn't much worse and the controlled practice allowed me to deal with the situation.

Most of the ‘reality-based’ systems I have come across begin to fall apart because they either become sloppy under pressure or the level technical proficiency was never allowed to develop.

Unless you have a militaristic resource, need and commitment to training under pressure you have to look at what will serve you best, be most beneficial (and least injurious) long term and make training enjoyable on a day-to-day basis so you actually keep on going without getting burnt out.

Alongside this is longevity, develop a technical mindset early on in your training and you have much more to play with for longer. Work for pressure and you tend to stop at ‘good enough’.

I’d like to see people training for life, for development and for empowerment... compared to that training for functionality is easy to achieve.

: )

11:17 AM

 
Blogger Phil Wright said...

p.s. It's good to see some serious discussion going on. Keep it coming.

11:21 AM

 
Blogger Steve R said...

For me, the idea of having high pressure rolls and "eating an elbow" on a regular basis isn't appealing. We all have to go to work the following day and we all have lives to lead which wouldn't be helped by blowing a knee or breaking bones through not having the technical skills to keep up with an opponent who was powering down all the time like a madman.

I had an exchange with someone on a list I'm a member of who couldn't understand why anybody would want women in a class and thought anyone who did didn't understand the real reasons for training - in his eyes it was all to beat the other guy up and show aggression. It doesn't make sense to me that way. Training needs to be safe and just push you a bit at a time outside of your comfort zone in a controlled manner, rather than overwhelming you and leaving you broken and bruised every week.

They're just my thoughts though - others are entitled to their views as well.

7:15 AM

 
Anonymous John Kwan Doh said...

For me, training at a less demanding rate is becoming increasingly more fun as i feel that i learn more and get to work on what i want to. I personally dont feel that this becomes any less of a work out than if i was to go full throtle because id rather be running a marathon than a sprint. Rolling is alot like swimming for me in the sense that the better you pace yourself the longer your workout will last rather than a few all out rolls which leave you gasping and not really achieving.

1:21 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well you have certainly opened my eyes. Its good to have the benefits of the current methods described in so many personal ways by each person. I can definitely see the benefit of Johns comment, ie "the better you pace yourself the longer your workout will last" along with the various comparisons to swimming. I wish i could think of another come back, its quite interesting to get an insight into everyones views. Who would win in a fight between Gaz and Phil (blindfolded)? My moneys on Phil.
Sorry Gaz.

2:13 PM

 
Blogger Phil Wright said...

I'd just fall asleep if you blindfolded me so Gaz would get the upper hand.

So have we answered your original question?

If you want to do some harder rounds let me know and we'll sort it out. Like I said, when we get the sparring classes back up and running you'll have plenty of opportunities to step it up a gear...

...in a positive way.

2:52 PM

 
Blogger gaz @ revolution said...

i must remember that blindfold if we ever fight, lol.

ill send adam into personal lives to get one from his mate, hehe.

7:03 PM

 
Anonymous Matt said...

Phil said
"I think this is where I see the problem arising, every new student to grappling I have seen, whether serious or ‘game-based’, always resort to all out push and shove."

I have a good method of dealing with that one. I let them push and shove and exhaust themselves. When one kid wins, I reset them and let them go until they are literally worn out. If the same kid keeps winning, I let him go with a few other kids until they are out of gas.
Eventually they learn that pushing isn't doing much but wearing them out.
On the rare occasions that they don't have the lightbulb go off on their own, I'll explicitly state it.
I must say, I do worry about the elbow in the mouth, if for no other reason than for liability. Mainly I worry that some kiddo will lose his teeth, but that hasn't happened to me yet. (knock on wood)

3:44 PM

 
Blogger Phil Wright said...

Hi Matt

I think my views on the matter come from the fact that almost everyone I work with is an adult.

Kids tend to take losses on the chin if they get to 'win' another round somewhere along the line.

I think they see it less as a bruising to their ego. I can remember having hardcore fights with my mates as a kid which would be all forgotten in minutes afterwards.

Adults tend to carry a greater weight of expectation which breeds negative viewing of any round that doesn't match the script in their heads. That's where I think the benefits of a controlled start to a roll come to the fore. Less chance for ego to get in the way.

3:51 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And that's why I prefer to teach kids right there in a nutshell.

5:49 PM

 
Blogger ChrisBishop said...

Hey Guys. This is Chris across the Irish Sea on the Isle of Man. What a discussion!!! My personal two cents comes down what you are training for. If you are training for development and experimentation then you need to lighten it up. If you training to pressure test, you need to speed it up. If you training for physical development (conditioning), use the pads. If your a competetive athlete, you need all of the above. If you where training 5 days a week, I'd pressure test once a week, with the remaining time split between skill development and conditioning. To reinforce this, watch TUF4. These guys are already proffesional fighters, they train at a max of 60% in sparring. This avoids injuries, and enables an element of skill development. Leading up to my competetions I actually decreased the heaviness of the sparring, and just kept the speed (don't want to go in the ring with a broken nose), and to second this notion, go to Thailand and see them train. They barely touch one another. If your a non competetive athlete who just likes a rumble every now and again, choose a like minded training partner and spar/roll heavy a couple times a month. Again you need to respect everybody's training goals (on that note, others need to respect yours aswell, which Phil obviously does putting on sparring classes). Anyway I've procrastiated enough, and really need to start dinner before the wife comes home and decides I need to be slapped around to condition me. ;-) Chris

7:00 PM

 
Blogger Steve R said...

I'm sure she'll slap you around anyway Chris! :o)

I've learned in the last few weeks that what I thought was light rolling and light sparring wasn't on most occasions. Bringing the level down is being helped by some stuff that Phil suggested, as well as following the energy through rather than trying to work against it.

Interesting times!

9:27 PM

 

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